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	<title>Comments on: Cephalopod Consciousness Part 3: The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness</title>
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	<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168</link>
	<description>A many-armed love affair</description>
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		<title>By: CD Bedrucken</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-6463</link>
		<dc:creator>CD Bedrucken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-6463</guid>
		<description>Euer Shop für exklusive Ducati Parts! Egal ob ihr eine Ducati 1098 oder die neue Multistrada 1200 fahrt, hier findet ihr vom Sportauspuff über Carbon Teile bis zum Tuning das passende Zubehör für eure Ducati. Wir führen so bekannte Hersteller wie Brembo, Sil-Moto, Quat-D und viele weitere. Ab einen Bestellwert von 100.- Euro liefern wir versandkostenfrei nach Deutschland und Österreich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Euer Shop für exklusive Ducati Parts! Egal ob ihr eine Ducati 1098 oder die neue Multistrada 1200 fahrt, hier findet ihr vom Sportauspuff über Carbon Teile bis zum Tuning das passende Zubehör für eure Ducati. Wir führen so bekannte Hersteller wie Brembo, Sil-Moto, Quat-D und viele weitere. Ab einen Bestellwert von 100.- Euro liefern wir versandkostenfrei nach Deutschland und Österreich.</p>
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		<title>By: Open Laboratory 2010 &#8211; submissions now closed &#8211; see all the entries &#124; A Blog Around The Clock</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-2960</link>
		<dc:creator>Open Laboratory 2010 &#8211; submissions now closed &#8211; see all the entries &#124; A Blog Around The Clock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-2960</guid>
		<description>[...] Part 1: Who cares? and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 2: The Case for Animal Consciousness and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 3: The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 4: Reflections and Questions, either separately or fused into a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Part 1: Who cares? and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 2: The Case for Animal Consciousness and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 3: The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness and Cephalopod Consciousness Part 4: Reflections and Questions, either separately or fused into a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Editor&#8217;s Selections: Psychedelic Drugs, Narcissism, Cephalopods, and Friendship [The Thoughtful Animal] &#187; iThinkEducation.net!</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-765</link>
		<dc:creator>Editor&#8217;s Selections: Psychedelic Drugs, Narcissism, Cephalopods, and Friendship [The Thoughtful Animal] &#187; iThinkEducation.net!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 00:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-765</guid>
		<description>[...] Mike Lisieski of Cephalove concluded a short series about octopodes with The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mike Lisieski of Cephalove concluded a short series about octopodes with The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lisieski</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lisieski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-714</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment!

The psychology of consciousness and cognition, I have found, tends to deal very little with the problems that occur when we infer things about the properties of the consciousness of others.  I suppose that if it had to deal with these problems before proceeding, it would probably not get anywhere very fast.  My personal view is that these experiments don&#039;t actually say anything about consciousness - that can only be speculated about based on an always somewhat flawed analogy to people (to one&#039;s self, more specifically.)  

The experiments I&#039;ve talked about here are valid in that they measure the effects of certain manipulations on a system, and can do it reliably.  The conclusions we can draw from them are concrete, and have nothing to do with the animal&#039;s subjectivity directly: &quot;given a variety of bivalves to eat, an octopus will match its bivalve-opening strategy to the force required to separate the shells of the bivalve&quot; and &quot;shown an image of itself, a cuttlefish will show agonistic behavior&quot;.  What might appear to be the inference of conscious processes is actually a speculation as to the possibility of some sort of conscious processes, which may never become more developed because of the inaccessibility of others&#039; subjectivities.

That said, if we don&#039;t assume away problems like the one you brought up, or for example, the classical problem of other minds, we have no chance of studying consciousness as a mechanism of behavior (by which I mean something like &quot;understand the neural events which coincide with conscious states as a mechanism of behavior&quot;.)  These assumptions are less problematic if we treat science as an inquiry into function rather than an inquiry into truth, so that probabilistic predictive ability (which can be shown and discussed rather unambiguously) is our goal rather than &quot;knowing&quot; the Other (the Other being whatever behaving organism we&#039;re studying.)

I hope that makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment!</p>
<p>The psychology of consciousness and cognition, I have found, tends to deal very little with the problems that occur when we infer things about the properties of the consciousness of others.  I suppose that if it had to deal with these problems before proceeding, it would probably not get anywhere very fast.  My personal view is that these experiments don&#8217;t actually say anything about consciousness &#8211; that can only be speculated about based on an always somewhat flawed analogy to people (to one&#8217;s self, more specifically.)  </p>
<p>The experiments I&#8217;ve talked about here are valid in that they measure the effects of certain manipulations on a system, and can do it reliably.  The conclusions we can draw from them are concrete, and have nothing to do with the animal&#8217;s subjectivity directly: &#8220;given a variety of bivalves to eat, an octopus will match its bivalve-opening strategy to the force required to separate the shells of the bivalve&#8221; and &#8220;shown an image of itself, a cuttlefish will show agonistic behavior&#8221;.  What might appear to be the inference of conscious processes is actually a speculation as to the possibility of some sort of conscious processes, which may never become more developed because of the inaccessibility of others&#8217; subjectivities.</p>
<p>That said, if we don&#8217;t assume away problems like the one you brought up, or for example, the classical problem of other minds, we have no chance of studying consciousness as a mechanism of behavior (by which I mean something like &#8220;understand the neural events which coincide with conscious states as a mechanism of behavior&#8221;.)  These assumptions are less problematic if we treat science as an inquiry into function rather than an inquiry into truth, so that probabilistic predictive ability (which can be shown and discussed rather unambiguously) is our goal rather than &#8220;knowing&#8221; the Other (the Other being whatever behaving organism we&#8217;re studying.)</p>
<p>I hope that makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Govinda Dickman</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-708</link>
		<dc:creator>Govinda Dickman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-708</guid>
		<description>my way of saying: love the blog!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my way of saying: love the blog!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Govinda Dickman</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-707</link>
		<dc:creator>Govinda Dickman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-707</guid>
		<description>Most philosophical enquiry into the nature and essence/substance of consciousness, and most actual experimentation into same, is defined-at-root by a very anthropocentric definition of consciousness.

Typically, the seeker of this type of knowledge seeks to compare the objects, mechanisms and functions of other beings&#039; being to that of their own, usually in order to attain some sort of instrumental power over that object: to predict, to understand, to control.

Levinas would have pointed out that this approach precludes  learning because it precludes discourse with the &quot;object of investigation&quot;, and locks the investigator into a paradoxical DIALOG with their own projections, effects and affects.  It is the difference, he would say, between encountering Other (which is merely a shadow of our psycholinguistically constructed Self) and encountering actual alterity...

Interestingly, this problem pertains even in the ontological investigation of our own phenomena: as mentioned before, we tend to anthropocentrically instrumentalise and objectify everything we encounter, and this projective quality is all but invisible to us: we cannot see the colour of our own eyes, cannot see the ripples we cause, cannot see beyond the horizon that our existential &quot;location&quot; entails.

It is astounding to me, that we should believe we may have ANY epistemological access the subjective phenomena of other beings, when we are so mawkishly inept in dealing with our own!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most philosophical enquiry into the nature and essence/substance of consciousness, and most actual experimentation into same, is defined-at-root by a very anthropocentric definition of consciousness.</p>
<p>Typically, the seeker of this type of knowledge seeks to compare the objects, mechanisms and functions of other beings&#8217; being to that of their own, usually in order to attain some sort of instrumental power over that object: to predict, to understand, to control.</p>
<p>Levinas would have pointed out that this approach precludes  learning because it precludes discourse with the &#8220;object of investigation&#8221;, and locks the investigator into a paradoxical DIALOG with their own projections, effects and affects.  It is the difference, he would say, between encountering Other (which is merely a shadow of our psycholinguistically constructed Self) and encountering actual alterity&#8230;</p>
<p>Interestingly, this problem pertains even in the ontological investigation of our own phenomena: as mentioned before, we tend to anthropocentrically instrumentalise and objectify everything we encounter, and this projective quality is all but invisible to us: we cannot see the colour of our own eyes, cannot see the ripples we cause, cannot see beyond the horizon that our existential &#8220;location&#8221; entails.</p>
<p>It is astounding to me, that we should believe we may have ANY epistemological access the subjective phenomena of other beings, when we are so mawkishly inept in dealing with our own!</p>
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		<title>By: Bunche</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-701</link>
		<dc:creator>Bunche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 03:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-701</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike-

I just heard about this site today, and it made my summer. I have been a lifelong lover of sea life — Jacques Cousteau was my god when I was a kid — especially the beautiful and graceful cephalopods, so this is right up my alley. Please keep it coming.

Thanks!

-Bunche</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike-</p>
<p>I just heard about this site today, and it made my summer. I have been a lifelong lover of sea life — Jacques Cousteau was my god when I was a kid — especially the beautiful and graceful cephalopods, so this is right up my alley. Please keep it coming.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>-Bunche</p>
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		<title>By: ResearchBlogging.org News &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Editor&#8217;s Selections: Psychedelic Drugs, Narcissism, Cephalopods, and Friendship</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>ResearchBlogging.org News &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Editor&#8217;s Selections: Psychedelic Drugs, Narcissism, Cephalopods, and Friendship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-683</guid>
		<description>[...] Mike Lisieski of Cephalove concluded a short series about octopodes with The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mike Lisieski of Cephalove concluded a short series about octopodes with The Case for Cephalopod Consciousness. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lisieski</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-680</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lisieski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-680</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment!

I&#039;ve tried to steer clear of actually claiming anything outright about whether or not cephalopods have consciousness (and it would probably be only primary consciousness, if anything,) because the arguments for that position (as you point out) require a lot of (blind) inference.  However, I&#039;m convinced that cephalopods are a good candidate for further study on the possibility of consciousness.

The hippocampus/vertical lobe analogy is one that I myself don&#039;t quite buy, except in the most general sense - ie. in the sense that a tic-tac-toe-playing computer made out of tinker toys ( http://www.retrothing.com/2006/12/the_tinkertoy_c.html ) and a my PC both use the same sort of mathematics to accomplish tasks.  They may have similar computational properties (based on very preliminary anatomical evidence), but we&#039;ve yet to solve what that means in terms of large-scale brain function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tried to steer clear of actually claiming anything outright about whether or not cephalopods have consciousness (and it would probably be only primary consciousness, if anything,) because the arguments for that position (as you point out) require a lot of (blind) inference.  However, I&#8217;m convinced that cephalopods are a good candidate for further study on the possibility of consciousness.</p>
<p>The hippocampus/vertical lobe analogy is one that I myself don&#8217;t quite buy, except in the most general sense &#8211; ie. in the sense that a tic-tac-toe-playing computer made out of tinker toys ( <a href="http://www.retrothing.com/2006/12/the_tinkertoy_c.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.retrothing.com/2006/12/the_tinkertoy_c.html</a> ) and a my PC both use the same sort of mathematics to accomplish tasks.  They may have similar computational properties (based on very preliminary anatomical evidence), but we&#8217;ve yet to solve what that means in terms of large-scale brain function.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/?p=168#comment-675</guid>
		<description>Hi
most of your arguments are assumptions and highly theoretical. You must not mix intelligence (in its wide spectrum), complex behavior and consciousness. A computer can learn, but it is not conscious of itself. 
I think you should emphasize more on the different levels of consciousness. 
Also, from a scientific point of view, the comparison vertebrate brain / mammalian brain / invertebrate brain is very dangerous, functional, evolution wise and morphologically. Even if Cephalopods have an area specialized for memory and learning, it does not necessarily mean, that this area is (functional) homolog to the mammal hippocampus!
I recommend the papers from Onur Güntürkün, he played a major role in relabeling the birds brain, and he wrote some interesting reviews.

Nevertheless, I love your blog ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi<br />
most of your arguments are assumptions and highly theoretical. You must not mix intelligence (in its wide spectrum), complex behavior and consciousness. A computer can learn, but it is not conscious of itself.<br />
I think you should emphasize more on the different levels of consciousness.<br />
Also, from a scientific point of view, the comparison vertebrate brain / mammalian brain / invertebrate brain is very dangerous, functional, evolution wise and morphologically. Even if Cephalopods have an area specialized for memory and learning, it does not necessarily mean, that this area is (functional) homolog to the mammal hippocampus!<br />
I recommend the papers from Onur Güntürkün, he played a major role in relabeling the birds brain, and he wrote some interesting reviews.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I love your blog <img src='http://cephalove.southernfriedscience.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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